London isn't a sustainable town. It imports energy, foodstuffs and materials and exports garbage, pollution and products. I hasn't sustained but rather existed for 2000 years.
Panasonic makes the best batteries and solar cells in the world. The Japanese are VERY energy conscious - they know exactly well what happened in WWII when the USN submarines torpedoed their tankers and colliers. The Japanese know what they are doing - this is not going to be a temple complex to Blessed Gaia, but another Japanese innovation. Which usually work.
You may call Japan a cloudcuckooland, but usually their quirks do function. If some European country had come up with this kind of an innovation, I would have been worried: Western quirks usually do not work; Japanese do.
It looks very much like Frank Lloyd Wright's "Broadacre City" concept to me.
Which is a fancy way of saying "American Suburbia, Circa 1955", actually.
Exactly where in Japan is Panasonic going to put it, anyway? Flat land suitable for it would be more valuable as farmland in an island environment, I would think. Which was why Japan never had American-style "suburbia" to begin with, IIRC.
Davud, that is dynamic but NOT sustainable. Nothing which uses combustion - be it wood, oil, garbage or coal - by its primary energy source is sustainable.
Several Norwegian places are quite close. Hydroelectric power is abundant and cheap there. I can well imagine building an energy-self-reliant town in Japan, where both solar energy and hydroelectric energy are readily available, but not in UK or anywhere else in Western Europe.
The Japanese are insane when they build nuclear plants in their earthquake-prone country and the Germans are insane as they are shutting theirs down.
After WWII, the US gave Japan the funding and encouraged Japanese infrastructure which, a few decades later, the Japanese used to challenge US industry - including cars and semiconductor products. Japan effectively practiced the art explained in the expression "Business is war".
Then a few decades ago the US imported big-government "liberalism" to Japan, and now the Japanese are drowning in the same bureaucratic red tape and ill-conceived Gaia Projects that the US and Europe are sinking in. True, the Japanese have always loved nature, just like people the world over (but more than most cultures, a gift the Japanese have is a naturally elegant way of expressing themselves), but their worship of it has become unsustainably extreme, a fate common to frenzied false religions everywhere. And so their culture and society, like so many others, is declining.
Ain't statism and false religion in all their flavors just grand?
London is most emphatically sustainable. It's very existence proves that. Whether its support systems are self-contained or spread out across the globe is irrelevant so long as they continue to function.
As an example of an unsustainable city, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Carthage. It wasn't Roman-proof.
wesley, it isn't the Japanese government which is building that town but Panasonic, a private corporation.
Like I said, when the Westerners attempt something radical, they usually fail. When the Japanese attempt something radical, they usually succeed.
Japan has been an Etatist society since the Tokugawa shogunate. The big government is not an US import, it is indigenous there - and it was much worse before the WWII. Before 1945, Japan was basically a 12th century society with 20th century technology.
Yes Ironmistress, a private corporation doing something noble. Isn't that grand? And isn't it interesting that, for a while, the Japanese were smart enough to see that their government was holding back their ability to compete with less statist-oriented societies, so they made some effort to correct that? Not much, but anytime the government boot's pressure on the neck of the producers is lessened, the society - in particular its individuals - benefits.
Yes Ironmistress, a private corporation doing something noble. Isn't that grand?
A public institution would do this for an assumed common good, a private corporation will do this for profit. I find it difficult to see profit-seeking to be anyhow more noble than any public action.
Capitalism is not about charity. It is about maximizing the profits.
And isn't it interesting that, for a while, the Japanese were smart enough to see that their government was holding back their ability to compete with less statist-oriented societies, so they made some effort to correct that?
It is called outsourcing.
Not much, but anytime the government boot's pressure on the neck of the producers is lessened, the society - in particular its individuals - benefits.
What exactly is the difference between the government's boot and the capitalist's boot pressing one's neck?
"What exactly is the difference between the government's boot and the capitalist's boot pressing one's neck?"
If one doesn't like the alleged "boot" of capitalism they can always change locations or start a competing boot company.
You can't start a competing government, you can only put up your hands when they come around for a friendly chat with their rifles and if you're particularly vocal you can wear stripes in a little room until they come to put a bullet through you...for the common good of course.
You can't start a competing government, you can only put up your hands when they come around for a friendly chat with their rifles and if you're particularly vocal you can wear stripes in a little room until they come to put a bullet through you...for the common good of course.
When living in democracy, you can vote the government away.
That is exactly what we did in Finland a month ago.
Wastin' away again in IM's Statistville... Searchin' for a way to give her a clue... Some people say her ideology's to blame, But I know, it's her refusal to see.
David, once again I want to thank you for providing this forum so your readers can comment on the articles of current import you post. It is intellectually stimulating and you are obviously a man with a keen head on his shoulders. I write this not to flatter you but merely to point out a fact.
I am not alone in enjoying what you do here. Others, such as Eon and Sergej, obviously value this forum as well. IMHO, we are, for the most part, growing together to sharpen our minds and hopefully help others to think about what they believe and why. And in the spirit of education, I’d like to make a suggestion – It’s free, so take it for what it’s worth.
Ironmistress has made many comments to your posts, and when she displays a questionable logical blunder in her belief system, you have politely tried to assist her by pointing it out and offering an alternative idea for her to ponder. However, rather than take you up on your implicit offer, she typically carries on with her same tired devotion to her ideology, occasionally couching the same blather in slightly different phrases. But there are a few common threads that run through all her comments, which can easily be broken down into at most a few paragraphs.
My suggestion is this: For the benefit of your readers who wish to learn about opposing ideologies, and what defenses (or lack thereof) there are for the various beliefs presented here, it appears Ironmistress has provided a boilerplate defense for the statist/atheist (though she might say agnostic) worldview – a series of presentations, in fact, that are in her defense more cogent than what we typically see in mass media. Just as wrong, just as wretched when implemented through political policy, but better presented. With this in mind, would you consider devoting a page of your forum to her arguments and your rebuttals? Perhaps it could be the Ironmistress Ideology page. You could cut and paste your articles which stimulate her “debate”, along with your answers to her – statements (I’m trying to be polite here). Then when she trolls your site and copies-and-pastes her comments on your pages, you could respond with, for instance, “See Paragraph 7 on the IMI (Ironmistress Ideology) page for topic discussion (embedded link included)”. This will have a dual benefit: Not only will your new readers, who may not be as familiar with IM’s hot-button rants as some of us, be able to see what she believes and discover through your replies their inherent fallacious basis, but it will also save countless minutes otherwise wasted in replies you likely have already given to try to help her see an opposing viewpoint.
Democracy is a well-armed sheep and two wolves voting for dinner.
We have more firearms in Finland per capita than US and every adult male citizen has military training.
That is democracy in action for starters
You may loathe and disdain democracy just as much as you want, but in the end you only damage yourself. The only winners of loathing of democracy is Fascism and Plutocracy.
1 in 4 of Swedish 18 to 30 year old youths have had enough of both Democracy and Capitalism. They want dictatorship in Sweden. In addition, 20% of the youth would be ready to sell his or her vote.
Their main complaint is that they have too much leeway in their lives and too many choices and life in democracy and capitalism is completely unpredictable and utterly precarious. One wrong choice early in the life can ruin the whole future.
According to the survey, 26 percent of 18-29-year-olds thought that it would be good or very good if a “strong leader who didn’t have to care about a Riksdag or an election” ruled Sweden.
Older generations value democracy higher. 97 percent of those over 30 stated that it is important to live in a democratic country.
I'd recall I said the future belongs to Fascism, did I?
I refuse any longer to get into pointless round-robin arguments where you endlessly spout posturing cliches and refuse to listen to other points of views. It's like being trapped in a Mobious strip of some black-hearted Monty Python argument sketch and I've no desire to continue.
Go away and study the history of your own country, which you are clearly ignorant of to a staggering degree, and seek out the services of a decent rabbi to water to feed your soul on other than the hate and envy you've embraced.
If Fascism does sweep over Europe again, it's due to close-minded defeatists such as yourself.
Ironmistress, if you feel the urge to troll this comment section again spouting the same slogans so typical of your input, you may consider refraining. However, if you have more to offer than a cut-and-paste statist sendup ("Etatist", as you enjoy writing), there are plenty of people who visit David's blog who would be happy to hold a lively written conversation with intelligent thinkers.
Wesley, when given the choice between Democracy and Plutocracy, I choose the former. You apparently would choose the latter.
Mob rule = ochlocracy.
Capitalism in health care means amputations for the poor and neurosurgery to the rich. Likewise, capitalism in education means trivialities to the poor and university to the rich. That's the way it goes.
Ironmistress, you didn't mention a representative republic.
You write much of what you hate; it is troubling that there seems so little in your life that you can love.
Your arguments all have their basis in fallacious theories. David has tried reasoning with you but you continue to paste in the same comments as if you are unable to digest what has been presented to counter your erroneous assumptions. Why are you so adamant about your refusal to entertain ideas that do not agree with yours?
This very refusal you display is why, after a time, people stop responding to you. They see there is no way to penetrate the fog you envelope yourself in. It is not because your points are inarguable. It's just that you do not appear to comprehend any other point of view than your own. Yet you continue to troll. Eventually people tire of that and you are left alone in the room, shouting to yourself. That's what I meant in another thread when I wrote that you're shouting at the ether.
You're all nutcases! People have different opinions on such subjective.. umm..subjects like economy or religion! Learn to live with it and accept the fact that none of you are able to impose your own ideas onto someone else within the duration of a single argument! It's like watching a bunch of immobile empty Panzers trying to destroy each other by throwing rocks at one another.
Ironmistress, you didn't mention a representative republic.
Define "representative republic".
If the representatives are defined by common elections, it is called democracy (which you loathe). If they are not, it is called oligarchy (which you won't like, trust me). Mind you, USSR was a representative republic.
If the oligarchy is formed by family ties, it is nepotism. If it is formed by friendships and relation, it is Cronyism. If it is formed by miltary rank, it is militocracy. If it is formed by party membership, it is Centralism. And if it is formed by wealth, it is Plutocracy.
You write much of what you hate; it is troubling that there seems so little in your life that you can love.
Irrelevant on behalf of this discussion.
Your arguments all have their basis in fallacious theories.
But sound practise.
What you are claiming is basically making a straw man out of me, putting arguments which I have never claimed in my mind (such as Etatism was a good ides) and representing me as your logical inverse which you then knock down and howl you're won. You don't even inspect my arguments, not speaking about answering to them.
It is like your petty little world was all black and white. If someone is not on your side, she is against you.
It is just that those who are closest to the core of Capitalism know it is a scam. Warren Buffett, George Soros, J.P. Morgan - they all have known it is a scam. Capitalism unchecked will lead inevitably into Plutocracy, which is the most deprave form of dictatorship available.
David has tried reasoning with you but you continue to paste in the same comments
If you don't first get them, they must be repeated until they are understood.
Capitalism in health care will mean amputations for the poor and neurosurgery to the rich. Likewise, capitalism in schooling will mean trivialities for the poor and college to the rich. Brutally said but still true. Those things did not work in the past, they do not work in the present and they will not work in the future.
Well thanks! I also wanted to add something about how Dave's blog looks like one giant demotivational poster because it has a black background and the stuff you find on it is indeed demotivational, but never mind that.
If this bickering doesn't stop now, I'm shutting down the comments.
Ivan,
Welcome. Always good to hear a new point of view.
Wesley,
Thank you for your support, but I think it's time to step back.
Ironmistress,
You didn't take the hint, so I'm saying it flat. You are no longer welcome here. Please take a break and return when you learn to participate in a discussion without being deliberately provocative and insulting.
29 comments:
London isn't a sustainable town. It imports energy, foodstuffs and materials and exports garbage, pollution and products. I hasn't sustained but rather existed for 2000 years.
Panasonic makes the best batteries and solar cells in the world. The Japanese are VERY energy conscious - they know exactly well what happened in WWII when the USN submarines torpedoed their tankers and colliers. The Japanese know what they are doing - this is not going to be a temple complex to Blessed Gaia, but another Japanese innovation. Which usually work.
You may call Japan a cloudcuckooland, but usually their quirks do function. If some European country had come up with this kind of an innovation, I would have been worried: Western quirks usually do not work; Japanese do.
And London had to reboot in 1667.
It looks very much like Frank Lloyd Wright's "Broadacre City" concept to me.
Which is a fancy way of saying "American Suburbia, Circa 1955", actually.
Exactly where in Japan is Panasonic going to put it, anyway? Flat land suitable for it would be more valuable as farmland in an island environment, I would think. Which was why Japan never had American-style "suburbia" to begin with, IIRC.
cheers
eon
On the contrary, London is and always has been perfectly sustainable for precisely the reasons Ironmistress gives.
Here is a link to the article. They are going to build it at the place of one of their redundant factories. 47 acres, which is the same as 19 ha.
Davud, that is dynamic but NOT sustainable. Nothing which uses combustion - be it wood, oil, garbage or coal - by its primary energy source is sustainable.
Several Norwegian places are quite close. Hydroelectric power is abundant and cheap there. I can well imagine building an energy-self-reliant town in Japan, where both solar energy and hydroelectric energy are readily available, but not in UK or anywhere else in Western Europe.
The Japanese are insane when they build nuclear plants in their earthquake-prone country and the Germans are insane as they are shutting theirs down.
In the photograph, are the photocell roofs all pointing in different directions?
After WWII, the US gave Japan the funding and encouraged Japanese infrastructure which, a few decades later, the Japanese used to challenge US industry - including cars and semiconductor products. Japan effectively practiced the art explained in the expression "Business is war".
Then a few decades ago the US imported big-government "liberalism" to Japan, and now the Japanese are drowning in the same bureaucratic red tape and ill-conceived Gaia Projects that the US and Europe are sinking in. True, the Japanese have always loved nature, just like people the world over (but more than most cultures, a gift the Japanese have is a naturally elegant way of expressing themselves), but their worship of it has become unsustainably extreme, a fate common to frenzied false religions everywhere. And so their culture and society, like so many others, is declining.
Ain't statism and false religion in all their flavors just grand?
Ironmistress,
London is most emphatically sustainable. It's very existence proves that. Whether its support systems are self-contained or spread out across the globe is irrelevant so long as they continue to function.
As an example of an unsustainable city, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Carthage. It wasn't Roman-proof.
wesley, it isn't the Japanese government which is building that town but Panasonic, a private corporation.
Like I said, when the Westerners attempt something radical, they usually fail. When the Japanese attempt something radical, they usually succeed.
Japan has been an Etatist society since the Tokugawa shogunate. The big government is not an US import, it is indigenous there - and it was much worse before the WWII. Before 1945, Japan was basically a 12th century society with 20th century technology.
Yes Ironmistress, a private corporation doing something noble. Isn't that grand? And isn't it interesting that, for a while, the Japanese were smart enough to see that their government was holding back their ability to compete with less statist-oriented societies, so they made some effort to correct that? Not much, but anytime the government boot's pressure on the neck of the producers is lessened, the society - in particular its individuals - benefits.
Your admission is well put.
Yes Ironmistress, a private corporation doing something noble.
Isn't that grand?
A public institution would do this for an assumed common good, a private corporation will do this for profit. I find it difficult to see profit-seeking to be anyhow more noble than any public action.
Capitalism is not about charity. It is about maximizing the profits.
And isn't it interesting that, for a while, the Japanese were smart enough to see that their government was holding back their ability to compete with less statist-oriented societies, so they made some effort to correct that?
It is called outsourcing.
Not much, but anytime the government boot's pressure on the neck of the producers is lessened, the society - in particular its individuals - benefits.
What exactly is the difference between the government's boot and the capitalist's boot pressing one's neck?
"What exactly is the difference between the government's boot and the capitalist's boot pressing one's neck?"
If one doesn't like the alleged "boot" of capitalism they can always change locations or start a competing boot company.
You can't start a competing government, you can only put up your hands when they come around for a friendly chat with their rifles and if you're particularly vocal you can wear stripes in a little room until they come to put a bullet through you...for the common good of course.
You can't start a competing government, you can only put up your hands when they come around for a friendly chat with their rifles and if you're particularly vocal you can wear stripes in a little room until they come to put a bullet through you...for the common good of course.
When living in democracy, you can vote the government away.
That is exactly what we did in Finland a month ago.
Wastin' away again in IM's Statistville...
Searchin' for a way to give her a clue...
Some people say her ideology's to blame,
But I know, it's her refusal to see.
David, once again I want to thank you for providing this forum so your readers can comment on the articles of current import you post. It is intellectually stimulating and you are obviously a man with a keen head on his shoulders. I write this not to flatter you but merely to point out a fact.
I am not alone in enjoying what you do here. Others, such as Eon and Sergej, obviously value this forum as well. IMHO, we are, for the most part, growing together to sharpen our minds and hopefully help others to think about what they believe and why. And in the spirit of education, I’d like to make a suggestion – It’s free, so take it for what it’s worth.
Ironmistress has made many comments to your posts, and when she displays a questionable logical blunder in her belief system, you have politely tried to assist her by pointing it out and offering an alternative idea for her to ponder. However, rather than take you up on your implicit offer, she typically carries on with her same tired devotion to her ideology, occasionally couching the same blather in slightly different phrases. But there are a few common threads that run through all her comments, which can easily be broken down into at most a few paragraphs.
My suggestion is this: For the benefit of your readers who wish to learn about opposing ideologies, and what defenses (or lack thereof) there are for the various beliefs presented here, it appears Ironmistress has provided a boilerplate defense for the statist/atheist (though she might say agnostic) worldview – a series of presentations, in fact, that are in her defense more cogent than what we typically see in mass media. Just as wrong, just as wretched when implemented through political policy, but better presented. With this in mind, would you consider devoting a page of your forum to her arguments and your rebuttals? Perhaps it could be the Ironmistress Ideology page. You could cut and paste your articles which stimulate her “debate”, along with your answers to her – statements (I’m trying to be polite here). Then when she trolls your site and copies-and-pastes her comments on your pages, you could respond with, for instance, “See Paragraph 7 on the IMI (Ironmistress Ideology) page for topic discussion (embedded link included)”. This will have a dual benefit: Not only will your new readers, who may not be as familiar with IM’s hot-button rants as some of us, be able to see what she believes and discover through your replies their inherent fallacious basis, but it will also save countless minutes otherwise wasted in replies you likely have already given to try to help her see an opposing viewpoint.
Thanks for your time!
"When living in democracy, you can vote the government away."
Democracy. Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
I'll stand by my statement.
Democracy is a well-armed sheep and two wolves voting for dinner.
We have more firearms in Finland per capita than US and every adult male citizen has military training.
That is democracy in action for starters
You may loathe and disdain democracy just as much as you want, but in the end you only damage yourself. The only winners of loathing of democracy is Fascism and Plutocracy.
As democracy goes...
1 in 4 of Swedish 18 to 30 year old youths have had enough of both Democracy and Capitalism. They want dictatorship in Sweden. In addition, 20% of the youth would be ready to sell his or her vote.
Their main complaint is that they have too much leeway in their lives and too many choices and life in democracy and capitalism is completely unpredictable and utterly precarious. One wrong choice early in the life can ruin the whole future.
According to the survey, 26 percent of 18-29-year-olds thought that it would be good or very good if a “strong leader who didn’t have to care about a Riksdag or an election” ruled Sweden.
Older generations value democracy higher. 97 percent of those over 30 stated that it is important to live in a democratic country.
I'd recall I said the future belongs to Fascism, did I?
Ironmistress,
I refuse any longer to get into pointless round-robin arguments where you endlessly spout posturing cliches and refuse to listen to other points of views. It's like being trapped in a Mobious strip of some black-hearted Monty Python argument sketch and I've no desire to continue.
Go away and study the history of your own country, which you are clearly ignorant of to a staggering degree, and seek out the services of a decent rabbi to water to feed your soul on other than the hate and envy you've embraced.
If Fascism does sweep over Europe again, it's due to close-minded defeatists such as yourself.
Good day, madam.
I will no longer participate in your trolling.
Democracy = mob rule.
Ironmistress, if you feel the urge to troll this comment section again spouting the same slogans so typical of your input, you may consider refraining. However, if you have more to offer than a cut-and-paste statist sendup ("Etatist", as you enjoy writing), there are plenty of people who visit David's blog who would be happy to hold a lively written conversation with intelligent thinkers.
Wesley, when given the choice between Democracy and Plutocracy, I choose the former. You apparently would choose the latter.
Mob rule = ochlocracy.
Capitalism in health care means amputations for the poor and neurosurgery to the rich. Likewise, capitalism in education means trivialities to the poor and university to the rich. That's the way it goes.
If Fascism does sweep over Europe again, it's due to close-minded defeatists such as yourself.
If Democracy is mob rule and Communism produces a hell on earth, then apparently Fascism is the lesser evil to Plutocracy.
Exactly what should we defend? The wallet and stock portfolio of the filthy rich?
Ironmistress, you didn't mention a representative republic.
You write much of what you hate; it is troubling that there seems so little in your life that you can love.
Your arguments all have their basis in fallacious theories. David has tried reasoning with you but you continue to paste in the same comments as if you are unable to digest what has been presented to counter your erroneous assumptions. Why are you so adamant about your refusal to entertain ideas that do not agree with yours?
This very refusal you display is why, after a time, people stop responding to you. They see there is no way to penetrate the fog you envelope yourself in. It is not because your points are inarguable. It's just that you do not appear to comprehend any other point of view than your own. Yet you continue to troll. Eventually people tire of that and you are left alone in the room, shouting to yourself. That's what I meant in another thread when I wrote that you're shouting at the ether.
You're all nutcases! People have different opinions on such subjective.. umm..subjects like economy or religion!
Learn to live with it and accept the fact that none of you are able to impose your own ideas onto someone else within the duration of a single argument!
It's like watching a bunch of immobile empty Panzers trying to destroy each other by throwing rocks at one another.
Ivan, that's a clever analogy! I like the visual it conjures up. Thanks for adding some levity. Sometimes I take myself too seriously.
Ironmistress, you didn't mention a representative republic.
Define "representative republic".
If the representatives are defined by common elections, it is called democracy (which you loathe). If they are not, it is called oligarchy (which you won't like, trust me). Mind you, USSR was a representative republic.
If the oligarchy is formed by family ties, it is nepotism. If it is formed by friendships and relation, it is Cronyism. If it is formed by miltary rank, it is militocracy. If it is formed by party membership, it is Centralism. And if it is formed by wealth, it is Plutocracy.
You write much of what you hate; it is troubling that there seems so little in your life that you can love.
Irrelevant on behalf of this discussion.
Your arguments all have their basis in fallacious theories.
But sound practise.
What you are claiming is basically making a straw man out of me, putting arguments which I have never claimed in my mind (such as Etatism was a good ides) and representing me as your logical inverse which you then knock down and howl you're won. You don't even inspect my arguments, not speaking about answering to them.
It is like your petty little world was all black and white. If someone is not on your side, she is against you.
It is just that those who are closest to the core of Capitalism know it is a scam. Warren Buffett, George Soros, J.P. Morgan - they all have known it is a scam. Capitalism unchecked will lead inevitably into Plutocracy, which is the most deprave form of dictatorship available.
David has tried reasoning with you but you continue to paste in the same comments
If you don't first get them, they must be repeated until they are understood.
Capitalism in health care will mean amputations for the poor and neurosurgery to the rich. Likewise, capitalism in schooling will mean trivialities for the poor and college to the rich. Brutally said but still true. Those things did not work in the past, they do not work in the present and they will not work in the future.
Well thanks! I also wanted to add something about how Dave's blog looks like one giant demotivational poster because it has a black background and the stuff you find on it is indeed demotivational, but never mind that.
Right.
If this bickering doesn't stop now, I'm shutting down the comments.
Ivan,
Welcome. Always good to hear a new point of view.
Wesley,
Thank you for your support, but I think it's time to step back.
Ironmistress,
You didn't take the hint, so I'm saying it flat. You are no longer welcome here. Please take a break and return when you learn to participate in a discussion without being deliberately provocative and insulting.
That is my final word.
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